Pivot With Purpose Season 6 Episode 4 Steve Dennis Full Transcript
Meghan Houle (00:03.352)
podcast. Thank you so much for being here. I'm just like loving our connection already. So thank you.
Steve (00:09.778)
Well, thanks. It's great to be with you.
Meghan Houle (00:12.364)
Yeah, and I know we share a lot of people in common out there in our world. Growing up through the retail space, I mean, you've had such an impressive career and definitely know throughout your career of growing and helping build, scale, all the things, you know, within your own, but now working with all kinds of businesses and within your consulting, like I can't wait to dive in to your background, your pivots, sharing your wisdom, your expertise.
what you're seeing in the industry. So as you already can tell, million questions on deck for you. But before we get into it, tell us where we're catching you in the here and now. What are you up to today? How is your year going thus far? Yeah, what moment are we catching you in?
Steve (00:43.862)
Ha ha.
Steve (00:55.69)
Well, I'm feeling a little trepidatious, not because of you, but I'm in this moment where I've spent, well, I finished up writing my book, Leaders Leap, at the end of last year, and then there's just been this holding time for several months before the book actually comes out. So I've talked to other authors about this, it's where you finish doing your thing, and then you just wait and wait and wait, and then it's out in the world, so.
Um, I'm looking forward to seeing how it's received, but it's been a busy year, lots of travel, working with clients and, uh, just kind of seeing where, where this book takes me next.
Meghan Houle (01:23.268)
Yeah.
Meghan Houle (01:33.728)
Yeah. And I know in all your pivots, currently too, you do a lot of strategic advisory for retail consumer brands. And I love that there are so many things now where we're truly back, back in person, back with the big conferences, back with the big events. What's been on your radar this year that you've just been really excited to be a part of and getting back and seeing people in real life truly now? Yeah.
Steve (02:00.778)
Well, I love that partially because of being a speaker, I've got the Remarkable Retail Podcast, which I've had for a few years, which Michael LeBlanc, who I do it with, we've taken that on the road to a couple conferences. So that's kind of fun. So yeah, it's just getting out. I don't know if you find this, but there's so many people that I feel like I know through social media or because we've been on a Zoom or something that...
Meghan Houle (02:13.308)
Mm-hmm. Love that. Yeah.
Steve (02:28.442)
I'm getting to see in person and catch up with them. So in some cases it's new friends, like I was just in London and caught up with a couple of people I feel like I've known forever, but never actually met in person. So all that's just really, really fun and exciting.
Meghan Houle (02:38.36)
Yeah.
Meghan Houle (02:42.144)
It is. And I feel like those real life connections, I don't know, there's always more that comes out of it. And I think like a deeper connection even further from there where you're just able to engage and like build that chemistry and that energy like in real life as much as we've appreciated having all the video and the Zoom and the things like...
Steve (03:02.202)
Yeah.
Meghan Houle (03:03.692)
I'm more for like, oh, get me off of these cameras. Like, let's just do an event. Like, let me show up. Cause then I think at a short period of time, you get that big burst of energy. But then I always laugh for my, you know, introverted, extroverted self. Then I need like two days, Steve, to just like be in silence and like lay on the floor. Like, it's a lot. Yeah.
Steve (03:20.042)
Well, no, I'm the same way though, as it's turned out this past couple of weeks, I've just been traveling like crazy and I just got back and I would love to just maybe take a few days off, but unfortunately my schedule does not allow me to do that. So I'll sleep when I'm dead apparently is my plan.
Meghan Houle (03:31.132)
Chill.
Meghan Houle (03:37.36)
Totally, me too. I'll be there with you, oh my gosh. But no, this is so great. Well, and starting in your career, in the heart of this podcast is all about pivots and really talking about the highs and lows of pivoting. Yeah, I know you've had a lot of different, really exciting opportunities, but where would you say early on, what role or opportunity were you involved in that really started to like kind of define
your professional sort of journey? Was there like one company or one position that you just really loved working with early on that shaped you as a leader? Yeah, so curious.
Steve (04:15.81)
Well, yeah, there, God, there have been so many. I think the first one that really struck me was, actually after I got out of business school, I was working for a large consulting firm and it was actually my first real, I guess, serious foray into retail. We were working with a big retail client and I think the thing that really struck me was, I was,
And, you know, as a shopper, I guess I should have figured this out myself, but working on the retail strategy side was just seeing how important it was to really go deep on understanding consumer behavior. I think that was the first thing is like, Oh, I actually really am pretty excited about trying to figure out how consumers make choices, you know, the consumer psychology piece. And then the flip side or not the flip side, but the other part of it was how in retail you get
really, you know, you can decide something. I mean, this is before the internet, but you know, you could decide something one day and you're getting that daily scorecard. So I think I like the immediacy of retail. And I also love the consumer psychology piece. Now, the next thing I did was not retail specific. So it took me a few years before I actually got into retail on the management side, but that just kind of planted the seed that I'm sort of turned on by trying to figure out how consumers make decisions and then.
Meghan Houle (05:19.716)
Mm-hmm.
Steve (05:36.662)
being able to respond to that and get a report card pretty quickly.
Meghan Houle (05:40.856)
Yeah. And some of the positions that you held then specifically in retail, because I know for a long time you were with Sears and I mean, what a legacy icon brand. You know, I, oh my gosh, remember malls? No, I'm just kidding. They're still out there. No, I'm just kidding. But like, that was the thing. Like I was the generation of Friday. You went to the mall. Like you literally begged your parents and you're like, can we go hang out? And there were all the anchors, the Sears, the JCPenney's filing, you know, like, well,
Steve (05:50.792)
Well, yeah.
Steve (05:55.753)
Yeah.
Meghan Houle (06:10.048)
I'm dating myself now too, kids, but like, listen, Steve and I, we still got a lot of life left in us, okay? But no, we do, we do. We're not sleeping yet, so we got a lot of life left in us. But no, I mean, I feel like they're these brands that were just household names, like a part of your life, and that's where you shopped, and that's where you did your things for home and lifestyle and all of that. And then I know very prescindously, you pivoted to like the Neiman Marcus group, which-
Steve (06:15.286)
Hopefully, hopefully. That's the plan anyway.
Meghan Houle (06:37.856)
Yes, that's a whole different catapult. And so curious to hear about your pivots there for sure. But from Sears, you've had a lot of roles, right? So what did you learn throughout your journey there? Because I know you have this beautiful mix of strategic planning, business development, finance, operations, kind of wearing a lot of hats. Was that something that was really exciting for you? Yeah.
Steve (06:47.54)
Mm-hmm.
Steve (07:00.554)
Yeah, I think, um, I think I discovered, so I joined Sears in 1991. So quite a long time ago now. And, you know, I was, I think it, to a certain degree, I have almost a pathological attraction to, uh, difficult situations because when I joined Sears, uh, Sears had moved from being the number one retailer on the planet to number two or three, I guess, at that point. And most of the trends were pretty negative, even going way back. And so it was always kind of a turnaround.
Meghan Houle (07:16.092)
Mm.
Steve (07:30.698)
fix it kind of situation. And I was fortunate that I got a number of different roles where I got to learn different parts of retail. So marketing, finance, um, I ran a division for, um, a number of years and, um, you know, but all the while Sears was kind of overall competitive situation was, was getting worse. And then I ended up being the head of corporate strategy.
for Sears and kind of the last gasp of trying to fix things. And the pivot at that point for me was number one, realizing that some situations just aren't fixable no matter how hard I work, we work. And also just kind of, I mean, it took me a little while once I was out of there to appreciate just how sad it is that you've got these iconic brands, and Sears is not the only one to go to the retail graveyard.
Meghan Houle (08:01.755)
Mmm.
Meghan Houle (08:05.519)
Yeah.
Meghan Houle (08:13.724)
Ooh. Yeah.
Steve (08:28.398)
There's plenty of other companies, which I get into in my new book, that have gone from being these amazing powerful brands to either also rands constant struggle or totally out of business. So I wanted to, I think more than anything, I wanted to go work in a place that wasn't a fix it opportunity. And also I had many years of...
Meghan Houle (08:29.029)
Yeah.
Meghan Houle (08:48.905)
Oh, interesting.
Steve (08:52.926)
meeting people at a cocktail party or whatever and they were like, Oh, what do you do? And I'm like, I work at Sears and you could just see them go, Oh, couldn't you get a real job? Like that's so sad. So I just wanted to, you know, work in a place where I got a little bit more respect. Uh, so fortunately Neiman's was a good opportunity.
Meghan Houle (09:00.963)
Oh
Meghan Houle (09:07.388)
Oh my gosh, yeah. Well, Ron Thurston will like roll in his grave with retail pride. You're like, yes, this is a real job. I mean, truly. Yeah. No, but I mean, I think, gosh, in those, in that time, where you were with that group, like think about how many...
Steve (09:16.157)
Oh, it was a real job, but it's kind of like, you know, are you going to go down with the ship? I guess was the people were worried for me.
Meghan Houle (09:30.78)
careers and lives that you impacted from like mentorship and team building? I don't know what were what were some of your favorite things that you saw, you know, just from this, I would say like late mid 90s, like early 2000s, like definitely when I was in retail, I mean, it's so different than it was back in the day. But do you feel like, you know, there was just like different leadership styles that you were?
Steve (09:48.98)
Yeah.
Meghan Houle (09:56.856)
doing or other things that were motivating people individually than there is now, you know, to really grow and like mentor their careers of individuals in retail. Because I just feel like it's so different.
Steve (10:06.87)
Yeah, I think there are a couple of things. I mean, there's definitely, I mean, for me, definitely as I got more, um, you know, I got these bigger jobs or more operating jobs, I was working less with what I'll call it's just sort of euphemistically MBA types to people, you know, with real, real life experiences and just managing the diversity of people's experience, education, whatever it might be was, was a real, real challenge, real growth opportunity for me.
But the other thing that started to happen definitely by the late 1990s was it was becoming much more clear that there was this thing called the internet and e-commerce and that was going to really, really change things and start to really, I mean, there's the whole competitive dynamic but also realizing that consumers are going to learn about your brand, not necessarily because they went to the mall and just walked down and popped into your store.
Meghan Houle (10:33.628)
Hmm.
Meghan Houle (10:43.108)
Yeah.
Meghan Houle (10:57.593)
Right.
Steve (11:01.634)
they were gonna start to learn from websites, they're gonna start to learn from social media, and that just really so changed the dynamic for retail. So some of that was trying to educate people about it and start to work through the implications and what does this mean for us? Where do we need to invest differently? It also meant we needed different kinds of skill sets in many cases to be able to respond to that change. So there was kind of the inward focus in terms of leading different...
Meghan Houle (11:01.816)
Yeah.
Meghan Houle (11:11.964)
Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Meghan Houle (11:23.803)
Yeah.
Steve (11:28.13)
different size teams, different kinds of composition of teams. And then there was the external perspective of this changing consumer, changing technology world.
Meghan Houle (11:36.208)
Wow, no, I mean, I remember those days early on, like all the old POS systems. And I still feel like to the credit of some brands, not only just a few years ago, there was still like very old outdated things, but you know, with all the new technology and also individuals coming in that are very advanced technology wise, like gosh, so much has changed. But you're right, I think from a brand marketing point of view, brand visibility, brand awareness, like.
Steve (11:51.296)
Oh sure.
Meghan Houle (12:04.92)
you're telling stories at all different levels. So no, it's so interesting to see like how things are going and all these like founder led brands and the stories behind there. I mean, you could get into that forever. But I mean, I know your big pivot from Sears was going into a very kind of prestigious, well-known.
organization within Neiman Marcus. So what, oh my gosh, what did that pivot look like for you? How was the interview process with that too, from like a recruiter here that works with a lot of different luxury brands. We know that recruiting process is not for the faint of heart, but then also being in the process, like, what was the moment that you knew, you know, it was kind of time to move on. Obviously you had the writing in the wall, like, did you seek out this pivot or did they come to you? Like, tell us about that change and like what your experience was kind of joining.
Steve (12:30.968)
Yeah
Steve (12:52.258)
Sure. Well, I always say it was my journey from the outhouse to the penthouse because it was quite a different thing. No, it was an interesting, I was recruited by a big search firm and it was a new role for Neiman Marcus. They had been working with McKinsey actually to try to redefine, or not redefine, but define a different structure for the future and to really get more focused on
Meghan Houle (12:52.644)
different brand at a different level, yeah.
Meghan Houle (12:57.804)
Right? Yeah.
Steve (13:21.418)
uh, kind of multi-channel marketing. We used to call it pre omni-channel or whatever days, as well as looking at new growth opportunities. Cause while the company was quite successful, it was pretty clear there was an older customer and, and perhaps there needed to be some new life brought into the company for future growth. And so, um, my experience running multi-channel integration efforts at Sears and just in general doing strategy and growth work was a good fit, but yeah, I really had to convince them that some guy from Sears could
Meghan Houle (13:24.528)
Mm-hmm.
Steve (13:49.142)
could thrive in the fashion world. So one of the hot tips I can give people, though probably is pretty specific, is go and make sure you buy yourself a nice shirt and tie before you go interview Neiman Marcus, because it was very clear that a couple people interviewing me were definitely checking out my wardrobe. And thankfully I had bought some stuff at Neiman Marcus before my final interviews, so that worked out for me. But no, again, it's a little bit of, not that it was an impossible challenge,
Meghan Houle (13:53.488)
Mm-hmm.
Meghan Houle (13:58.084)
Yeah.
Meghan Houle (14:08.21)
Oh yeah.
Steve (14:19.118)
Coming into a company, I was one of the very, very few outsiders that was on the senior leadership team. Coming from Sears was not the obvious experience for a luxury fashion player. And so I felt like, you know, I had to prove myself. But the thing that I had was a lot of functional expertise. And, you know, there's aspects of retail, I'm sure you found that, are pretty much the same, whether you're talking about discount or whether you're talking about the high end, you know, understanding the customer, assortment planning, you know, all that.
Meghan Houle (14:24.473)
No.
Meghan Houle (14:36.027)
Yeah.
Steve (14:49.378)
kind of blocking and tackling. I mean, those commonalities are true. It's just people in Neiman's were much better dressed than the people in Neiman's, or the people at Sears, I can tell you that much.
Meghan Houle (14:56.604)
Right. Yeah. Well, and you know, I can absolutely align with that because my big pivot into luxury, you know, I was sort of, well, do you want to laugh? So I started very early on, well, limited brands, and that's not funny because like Bath and Body Works, of course, I like crushed it during the holiday season, like selling all the gift bags.
Steve (15:16.152)
Mm-hmm.
Meghan Houle (15:17.52)
Probably to this day why I have sinus issues, Steve. I'm like, all the things that were spraying around me. Love you, Beth and Bonnie. But I was like, oh gosh, but I'm also still a huge fan of perfume. So, you know, it's a bouncing map. But my first, first retail management job was at Wet Seal. And, you know, I was like 21. I thought I made it. I'm like, I'm selling flammable clothes that you wear at night.
Steve (15:21.204)
Yeah.
Steve (15:41.509)
Yeah, God.
Meghan Houle (15:42.272)
out to the club. From there, I pivoted and came actually into Boston where I finally got a taste of higher luxury, selling in more of advanced contemporary space and selling from $20 shirts to $300 jeans. Very much probably a lot of vendors aligned with Neiman's and I was like, oh, I thought I made it working on Newbury Street. And then from there pivoted to LBMH and Louis Vuitton.
Steve (15:55.073)
Mm-hmm.
Meghan Houle (16:09.072)
You know, I remember that imposter syndrome myself of like, oh my gosh, I know the luxury background. Like I haven't sold these high ticket items, but just like you went out, bought a very nice outfit, showed up, but I think at the end of the day, and this still holds true today, you know, from when I'm coaching people on the career side to, you know, coaching people and prepping them to get to the interview process, it's like that confidence, your skills, but also those soft skills. I will say arguably that has been what has gotten people in the door.
Steve (16:13.736)
Yeah.
Meghan Houle (16:38.516)
You know, not only back then with ours of like, hey, this person can do this job. And even though they're not from a like, from like company, like, they got it and they have the gravitas, they have the confidence they're going to come in, they're a great culture fit where a lot of it had to be like for like, and I always am so grateful for my opportunity to be brought into luxury because I feel like it makes me super successful in what I'm doing now. But there was a lot of resistance like back in the day. And we're not talking too far back.
where a lot of brands were hesitant to hire someone that didn't have the X, Y, and Z brand experience. And I'm like, but why? This person can sell. They can show up. They can do all the things. They're aligned with cultural value, visual, all of that. But I definitely feel like it's gotten a little more flexible now in this day than ever. It's like if somebody in their core values has service, or in the mindset of service,
Steve (17:15.074)
Hmm?
Meghan Houle (17:37.144)
a great team player, a lot of that brand connection has kind of fallen to the wayside. I mean, not in a bad way, but I just feel like there's a lot more companies that are much more open than they were. Are you seeing that? Because I know from Neiman's, you made some big pivots and I know now you consult and we can kind of talk about that. But yeah, how have you seen that shift? Very much like you getting into luxury and good for us, yay. And now we're doing all kinds of other things.
Steve (17:45.409)
Yeah.
Meghan Houle (18:07.221)
Yeah, what is your hot take on that in terms of hiring and hiring like for like and hiring for soft skills? I'm sure you've hired a ton of people in your time too.
Steve (18:14.238)
Well, I think you have to be, I mean, I guess I would say in general, there's more appreciation for, uh, you know, diversity of experience. Um, and, and I mean that, you know, diversity in lots of different respects. I also think that, you know, you have to be careful, um, not to just kind of hire your mini me. I mean, I think that's one of the things that, that I suffered with a little bit of, like, you know, I had a very specific.
Meghan Houle (18:25.595)
Yeah.
Meghan Houle (18:30.341)
Yeah.
Meghan Houle (18:39.316)
Yes. Yeah.
Steve (18:43.882)
way of like, oh, this may be successful. So therefore people on my team had to be more like me. And over time I started to appreciate the places where complementarity was really important or just even being able to separate out what's teachable. Because I think in my case with Iman Marcus, because I had the core skills, the capabilities to do my job, I had to learn the peculiarities and the specific.
Meghan Houle (18:54.692)
Mm.
Steve (19:11.766)
you know, culture and things that are different about luxury and fashion. Like that was a real learning curve for me. But I think I had the right values and qualities to be able to absorb those pretty quickly. So I think you have to balance, you know, how much is just sort of the facts you have to pick up or, or the things that most people can, if they're open to it and, and generally good at what they do, that people can pick up versus things that are really, really essential to, to long-term success. And, and just parsing that out, I think is pretty.
Meghan Houle (19:27.856)
Right.
Steve (19:41.294)
pretty helpful. But you know, there's still plenty of companies that have a very monolithic view of the world and if you don't fit this particular suit, you know, you're just not even being considered, which I think is really sad in a lot of cases.
Meghan Houle (19:48.142)
Oh yeah.
are now.
I know. Because you think about like in all of our spaces, I'm sure you counsel a lot of retail brands across all the industries and categories like the beauty industry has been so like for like, you know, I feel like fashion people feel like they can't break into beauty and beauty people can't break into fashion. I'm like, hey, y'all, you know, you're sharing the same customer. Like, let's be honest. It's literally a product pivot and a storytelling pivot and a lot of people can do it. But it's crazy. You know, I've seen...
Steve (20:11.405)
Yeah.
Meghan Houle (20:20.82)
where I've seen a lot of flexibility is hiring in like the fine jewelry space where they're very excited to take fashion people. Home and design is like really kind of a bet on fire, especially kind of the years coming out of the pandemic where everyone is like, let's redo our house because where else are we going? So, you know, they've really latched on to some fashion people for, you know, from a client standpoint, client telling, you know, knowing how to build those relationships because as you can imagine, you know, with high, high end home and design.
Steve (20:35.348)
Right.
Meghan Houle (20:48.632)
Also same client, also same thing. Lead times, orders, like following up the service piece of it, those high demands. So I certainly think that, yeah, there's some people that have adapted, some brands that have adapted to like, hey, you know what, they have the foundations, great. And then others that maybe are just.
how they are and they want what they want and that's okay. Everyone has choices. But I don't know. It's definitely a very interesting retail climate out there, which maybe we can kind of get into. And I love this industry so much. But before that, your pivot from Neiman Marcus, I mean, to like building your own business and like coming in and advising for all of these like really cool brands. And it still looks like you're a part of like, what was that transition like for you? And tell us.
Steve (21:16.322)
Sure.
Steve (21:26.324)
Mm-hmm.
Meghan Houle (21:34.692)
Yeah, really in your consulting, you know, what you're doing now to support brands and like how you're advising. So where did that big pivot come in? What was the transition like?
Steve (21:43.102)
Well, to a certain degree, I backed into it, honestly, because I left Neiman's without a plan to do anything. I decided to take some time off for a bunch of reasons, but I was pretty burnt out on climbing the corporate ladder, I guess, for lack of a better term. And also some of the things I was quite passionate about, I wasn't really getting any traction there. So I decided to take some time off and kind of figure out.
Meghan Houle (21:46.733)
Mmm.
Meghan Houle (21:57.125)
Yeah.
Meghan Houle (22:01.245)
Yeah.
Steve (22:11.062)
what I wanted to do next. And the reason why I say I backed into consulting to a certain degree was that we decided we were gonna stay in Dallas where I still am today because of the age of our kids. And so I was like, okay, well, I gotta figure out something to do in Dallas. And the economy was kind of rough and I was like, ah, do I really wanna go back to kind of more of the same? Number one, it didn't look like there were great opportunities like that. Number two, I wasn't really feeling excited about the prospect of that. And I ended up having a few
investment firms kind of coincidentally reach out to me to advise them on some Investments they were looking at in luxury and fashion and I was like, okay Well, you know make a little bit of money do that and don't have to work that hard for a bit while I'm still figuring Things out and then I got to the point where I was like, well, you know, maybe I'd rather forge my own path Work with a variety like I really like variety. I really like these challenges and so maybe putting a portfolio of consulting gigs together
Meghan Houle (22:43.032)
Oh wow. Yeah.
Meghan Houle (22:54.793)
Uh huh.
Meghan Houle (23:00.758)
Mm-hmm.
Steve (23:10.51)
could be something that I really like. And then the other kind of somewhat backing into it was, as I started to do more of that and set up my own consulting firm and things like that, got a website, you know, all the things one does, I thought, well, you know, I'm not really, I've been so internally focused, I'm not really known out in the world as any kind of thought leader, so I've got to figure out a way to market myself. And so I started writing a blog and wrote like, you know, 900 things over.
Meghan Houle (23:30.265)
Mmm.
Meghan Houle (23:34.084)
Mm-hmm.
Steve (23:37.618)
several years and then Forbes asked me to write for them and then I started getting some asks to do speaking and you know it all just sort of went from there but it was it was a little bit of part of a long-term strategy of wanting not to be in a big company but be more of an independent person where I could have more creativity and more flexibility and you know for the most part it's worked out so you know but it wasn't because I sat down one day and said ah I gotta I gotta quit Neiman Marcus and go start a consulting firm it definitely was more
Meghan Houle (23:41.435)
Yeah.
Meghan Houle (23:46.908)
Yeah.
Meghan Houle (23:59.103)
Yeah.
Steve (24:06.75)
I guess organic as we like to say, then that was the pivoting without a particular purpose, I guess.
Meghan Houle (24:09.283)
Right.
Meghan Houle (24:13.908)
Right, you're like pivoting kind of with a purpose, but like it's going to work out. And then these things kind of, you know, it was great. Like you have an amazing reputation. So you have these opportunities land in your lap and you're like, hey, okay, this is maybe where I need to be. And it's, it's worked out for you. So that's amazing. And finding ways to share your thought leadership and putting yourself in new lives. I mean, listen, for someone who also came from a very corporate background, we know
the spotlight is not on us at all. And like you have all these great ideas, maybe what you were struggling with a little bit of like wanting to kind of implement and put things in place, but then it's gotta get signed off on the top. And if they're not bought into it, you're like, wait, like this is actually a great idea. So I mean, seeing the opportunity for yourself to, take the time, like make that pivot. And then, now you get to do advisory to all, I'm sure different clients and have worked probably for some amazing people.
over the years, how do you help individuals that come to you? Steve, what sort of things do you love to do? What problems are you solving for them? Talk to us a little bit about your zone of genius, I love to say. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Steve (25:21.21)
My zone of genius, I like that. Well, what I often say is I like to work with brands on the most critical or vexing strategic issue. You know, almost all my work having been the chief strategy officer at a couple companies, almost all my work is with senior teams and almost always it's on either finding that next growth pathway or shaping it.
Meghan Houle (25:35.121)
Hmm.
Steve (25:48.466)
in some way, shape or form. And over time, uh, it's become a little bit more of providing. I would, I would say, I don't know if this makes exact sense, but I sometimes refer to it as I try to provide more inspiration than prescription. And by that, I mean, I've gotten, you know, my left, my left brain skills are pretty well developed. Having
Meghan Houle (26:05.916)
Mmm. Mm-hmm.
Steve (26:11.906)
gone to business school and worked for a big strategy firm and just kind of being in these roles where it's a lot about analysis and PowerPoints and just trying to make a highly factual or largely factual based arguments. And I have found that can be super useful, but in a lot of cases and kind of the work I've been doing the last few years has been about, well, why is it that some companies and retail is a great example of this, like I'll just use the example of department stores.
When I left Sears in 2023, it was pretty obvious to me at least that the department store industry was in deep trouble and without radical change was likely to continue to decline. And guess what? 20 straight years or 22 straight years, I think at this point of major market share losses on the part of all the major department stores, Macy's, Penny's, et cetera, have closed hundreds and hundreds of stores.
Meghan Houle (26:53.522)(26)
Uh...
Meghan Houle (27:09.188)
Yeah.
Steve (27:11.218)
They've done very little of any consequence to change their trajectory. So the question is, it's not because the people that run those companies are stupid. It's not because those companies don't have tons and tons of evidence of where the market share is going and why customers are shopping at TJ Maxx or Ulta or Sephora or whatever, you know, wherever that volume has gone. But they don't act on it. And so I've really become more fascinated on, you know, there's the analysis part of,
Meghan Houle (27:17.497)
Yeah.
Alright.
Meghan Houle (27:30.652)
Mm-hmm.
Meghan Houle (27:35.643)
Mmm.
Steve (27:38.922)
what do you need to do and what happens if you don't do it or what's the opportunity to go after new growth things. But yet it doesn't happen as much. So there's started to be a little bit more like corporate psychologist I think is part of my, so in terms of a, to the degree it's a pivot or an evolution, it's stop relying so heavily on my intellect and my analytical capabilities and my PowerPoint skills and try to get into.
Meghan Houle (27:41.211)
Yeah.
Meghan Houle (27:52.458)
Yeah.
Meghan Houle (27:58.49)
Mm-mm.
Meghan Houle (28:04.249)
Right?
Steve (28:05.646)
What are those things that keep leaders and organizations stuck? And, and in a lot of cases, it isn't just the facts or the knowledge. It's, it's fear, it's ego. It's a certain kind of ignorance.
Meghan Houle (28:09.934)
Yeah.
Meghan Houle (28:17.912)
Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Well, and I mean, oh gosh, just even in the hiring process, that's gotten like out of control, Steve, like crazy, like the wild, wild west. I'm like, why? And I mean, this was like it when I was interviewing back then, but like no one can make a decision because no one wants to be the wrong one.
right? The shame of like, well, that was so and so's idea. And I think like that's, and I don't know if COVID like really affected us all in terms like job security or what it is, but no one wants to be, no one wants that blame put on them for like putting a bad idea on there or making a bad hire. So I agree. I think that some people just can't get out of their own way and they over complicate things wherein the answer could be so obvious, but they don't want to action it, unfortunately.
Steve (28:49.836)
Mm, yeah.
Steve (29:03.822)
Sure.
Meghan Houle (29:07.056)
I don't know what are some of the things like you're seeing right now happening that maybe is driving you really crazy that you also help companies with or just in general? Yeah, what are we? What are those hot button things?
Steve (29:07.134)
Yeah.
Steve (29:17.826)
Well, I think maybe answer that question a little bit indirectly or maybe come back to it. But I think, you know, when people, you know, in some cases, you know, people just have whatever fear of failure that keeps them stuck, right? But in other cases, I think you see, well, I guess in general believe that we've always seen, because we're just wired as not to get into like evolutionary biology, but I think, you know, we're wired
Meghan Houle (29:22.604)
Yeah.
Meghan Houle (29:44.816)
Mm-hmm.
Steve (29:46.562)
to most of us anyway are wired to play it safe, right? And you know, it's just our lizard brain kicks in that we think, you know, something terrible is gonna happen to us, whether that's like, you know, fear of flying, fear of public speaking, whatever. So there's an aspect of having to fight the resistance that most people have to new situations, right? So it may be just generally hard for people to say yes to a new hire or a new strategy, right?
Meghan Houle (29:52.205)
Yeah, true.
Meghan Houle (30:13.048)
Yeah, yeah.
Steve (30:13.718)
But other times I think, or something that I think is complicated things over the last few years is, as the pace of change has accelerated in many cases, and as the world has become more complex. You know, you think about the things that we have to worry about in many of our jobs. I mean, it depends on whether, like, you're more the CEO or a store manager or whatever, but you know, you've got...
you know, changing economic conditions, you got geopolitical concerns, you also got just new technologies coming at you. Now I got to figure out gen AI. You know, I just finished figuring out how to get a mobile device, you know, into the hands of my associates or whatever. So I think it's just, it can be quite overwhelming and complex, the number of things people have to deal with. And I think that can put people into more of a paralysis kind of mode. So I think as a leader, part of your job is to try to
Meghan Houle (30:43.)
I know, yeah.
Yeah.
Meghan Houle (31:04.262)
Yeah.
Steve (31:07.01)
help educate people, try to help people feel safe to take those risks. But it's a pretty complicated world. I would say, generally now, I think a lot of leaders are stuck because they've gotten themselves, just quickly going back to the department store example, if those folks that have watched the last 20 years happen to them, and now you're very, very far behind, and you realize you gotta maybe swing for the fences.
Meghan Houle (31:24.508)
Mm-hmm.
Steve (31:34.33)
Um, you know, that's a different kind of scary, right? Cause it's like, oh wow. You know, if I don't do something, I might go out of business. But if I, if I go out there to try to, um, totally redo my stores or spend all this money, you know, that might be a huge disaster. I'll get fired and, you know, shareholders will sue the company. You know, there's, there's so many things that could go wrong. So I think it's just a, there's a lot of, of retail that's just kind of fraught with risk, but the riskiest thing is standing still. That's the, you know, that's what I keep trying to.
Meghan Houle (31:38.552)
Yeah.
Meghan Houle (31:50.906)
Right.
Yeah.
Meghan Houle (31:59.44)
Totally.
Steve (32:01.026)
That's my message with a lot of the people I work with is, you know, safe is risky. In many cases, the status quo or the slow and steady change is actually the thing that's going to kill you or put you into the zone of irrelevance. So we've got to reexamine our relationship to risk, but, you know, that's easier said than done, certainly.
Meghan Houle (32:16.856)
Yeah.
Meghan Houle (32:21.92)
No, totally. And it's definitely in terms of who's leading that charge in the top and their buy-in. And I'm sure you are spending time in businesses and stores and whatnot. And I know your new book and I'm so interested in your author journey because same. Maybe that's a separate conversation for us on the side. No, I'm just kidding. But I feel like for leaders, oh my gosh.
I feel like the way we manage people, it should have never changed. I mean, there should be these core leadership values. Some people embrace them really well. Some people maybe shouldn't be in a leadership position, but still are. We'll go unnamed. But like, whoa, boy. But what do you see now in terms of just like, what do you have to do to show up and like
Steve (32:59.822)
Sure.
Meghan Houle (33:09.616)
lead a super dynamic team. And honestly, Steve, there's a lot of individuals that are coming up in their careers listening in, like that middle management, maybe that are really great, that are being held back by their leaders because they're probably better than them, but they are just holding people down because they have that power and authority and it's leading from ego and significance and all of that.
Steve (33:27.554)
Yeah.
Meghan Houle (33:31.028)
Where do you feel like someone really needs to hone in to be successful leading and managing teams that I don't care what any industry, like the foundation of that leadership can go across a lot of different industries for sure. So I don't know, what are some of your tips for just being a great leader right now in this climate environment?
Steve (33:42.862)
Sure, sure.
Steve (33:49.354)
Well, I just got off a conversation about an hour ago, um, where I was saying that this, this is maybe not the advice that everybody wants to have, but I think you have to be really honest about whether you can be successful in the current environment because I've seen, you know, myself included where I've overstayed my welcome or I've just wanted, you know, it's almost like a bad relationship where I want the company to be a better, different person than, than they are or they're capable of. So I do think we have to be.
Meghan Houle (34:04.27)
Mm-hmm.
Steve (34:17.878)
really honest and break through any denial about whether it's a situation where we can be successful. But assuming that you're not in that situation, then I think the key, I mean, you always got to figure out what I think are sort of the table stakes requirements of the job and make sure that you're developing those capabilities. And in some cases, that means sharing with maybe human resources or sharing with your boss or whatever what you need to do to feel that basic competence level.
But I think as you get into greater leadership positions, the capacities that I think are either underappreciated or underdeveloped are vulnerability and empathy. It's being able to make those connections with people. I think that's a superpower. Yes, you have to understand the product or the service model or whatever it happens to be, or if you're in a more technical job.
Meghan Houle (34:58.672)
Yeah.
Meghan Houle (35:07.941)
Yeah.
Steve (35:14.614)
You know, the technical requirements, you know, absolutely, you have to master those as best you can. But the ability to inspire people, the ability to build trust so that they come to you with their problems or they know you have their back, like that, that is a huge differentiator, I think, particularly at middle management as you, as you move up, you know, then as you move up, you know, you get more into, to strategy and vision and those, those kinds of things would be a little bit different. But yeah, I think people under appreciate the soft skills.
Meghan Houle (35:22.918)
Yeah.
Meghan Houle (35:39.803)
Right.
Yeah.
Steve (35:44.982)
And there's still too many cultures, as far as I'm concerned, that are more of the kind of militaristic command and control, all power sort of rests at the top, I alone can fix it kind of thing. And I think that's just a very antiquated way of leading. And people do have, particularly right now the job market's pretty strong, hopefully it stays that way, but people do have choices, right? And so I think as leaders...
Meghan Houle (35:45.177)
Yes.
Meghan Houle (35:53.253)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Meghan Houle (36:08.004)
Yeah.
Steve (36:12.906)
We, you know, it's not just what we pay them or a bonus or better hours or whatever it might be. Those are important, but people will stay if they feel valued and seen and respected and that trust is built.
Meghan Houle (36:17.101)
No.
Meghan Houle (36:26.604)
100%. Do you do consulting with teams that come in and maybe don't even have HR departments? I also feel like navigating difficult conversations, difficult employees. Do you take stock or giving advice for someone who's managed teams? I'm sure manage people out and in and all of that. I think that's another superpower that...
people have really tapped into it. I mean, especially in small businesses where you struggle, you know, early on, maybe you're hiring friends or like, Aunt Sally's sister's cousin, and there's like a different, there's a different connection there where you're like, well, I don't, you know, it's a friend or whatever, and I don't wanna call them out or I don't wanna do this, but you know, there's a lot of chaos in not addressing issues and not feeling confident as a leader to address issues or letting someone get away with something and not the other, you know, and that consistency. But,
Steve (36:59.114)
Yeah, right.
Steve (37:18.158)
Sure.
Meghan Houle (37:20.752)
I think there's been an uptick there because with the empathy side of it, there are associates that come in and then see that value and like, well, we want to be seen and we need better work-life harmony and so-and-so is sick and I have to call out. Then there's a little maybe feeling of abuse of that, of it. I think you have to rein it in and just be fair and consistent. Yeah, how do you maybe help some of those leaders or maybe through some of your books to navigate?
difficult conversations. I feel like a lot of people are struggling with that on top of like toxic work environments. But what's your advice there? Yeah, just curious.
Steve (37:56.758)
Well, you know, I mostly, I mostly work with big companies. Um, I do, um, on a few advisory boards to smaller startups and, and usually in the smaller companies, um, and also a couple of family run companies. I mean, usually the issue there is whoever is the leader is really good at one thing, but, but pretty underdeveloped in a bunch of other respects. And so.
Meghan Houle (38:05.339)
Yeah.
Steve (38:21.654)
I mean, I think one of the, at the risk of me to stay in the obvious is you have to figure out where your own worst enemy, you know, and be really honest with yourself about where, you know, what are your edges? Is it lack of knowledge? Is it your imposter syndrome, like you're just faking it because you're the boss, you're supposed to know all these things? I mean, I know the first job I had where I was running a division and I had a thousand people working for me and this has been a big responsibility. And I, you know, I barely knew what I was doing. Like I thought, you know,
Meghan Houle (38:30.501)
Yeah.
Meghan Houle (38:46.289)
Wow.
Meghan Houle (38:50.736)
Yeah.
Steve (38:51.35)
I was a pretty smart guy, I worked hard, whatever, but you know, coming, leading, and having that much responsibility was really overwhelming, and I mostly just was faking my way through it. Like I was not good at asking for help. I was not good at hiring around me. I mean, I eventually figured that out, and it worked out okay. But I think, you know, I just felt like nobody can let me, you know, nobody can see me sweat. Like, you know, I got this job, so I'm supposed to, and I think that just, that catches up with most.
Meghan Houle (39:09.24)
Mm-hmm.
Meghan Houle (39:14.013)
Right. Yeah.
Steve (39:18.942)
most people. So I think you have to be really honest with yourself and see where your ego gets in the way and be willing to ask for help. Now if it's a small company and you don't have the resources, it might be that you need to be finding a mentor or finding a networking group or finding some other resources that can support you because there are plenty of them. I think in most big cities anyway, there are plenty of groups that you could find with in-person stuff, but obviously online, there are different networking and support groups.
Meghan Houle (39:20.752)
Mm-hmm.
Meghan Houle (39:33.306)
Yep.
Steve (39:46.182)
I've told people just like experiment with it. Like you don't have to find the perfect one. You can find one or two and try them out. And if it's not working for you, you know, move on. Like it's not a lifetime commitment.
Meghan Houle (39:56.694)
Right. And I think, too, on the HR side, certainly a rise in consultancy on that end. Or I mean, even some of the things I do with my clients, like, of course, to my core, there's executive recruitment, and I help founders, CEOs, all that, hire for their brands. But there are definitely times where I am acting. And rightfully so, I have the background education in HR, and so on and so forth, where I'm
it's so needed and sometimes you just need that. It's like a coach almost, you know, I'm sure we've all worked with coaches of like, hey, here's a problem. I'm looking for a solution, but you're more coaching to their business and what they need and coaching them through difficult conversations or laws, compliance. I mean, so many things in HR are also very delicate. So you should be very careful. But no, I mean, I so currently you're still
Steve (40:23.696)
Mm-hmm.
Steve (40:37.398)
Oh sure, yeah, right, right.
Meghan Houle (40:45.208)
supporting brands, advising, who are your clients, who are you looking to take on, any newbies coming in, where would you say you sit with that in terms of your offering, where people can work with you? Yeah.
Steve (41:00.694)
Well, I mostly, at this point, I mostly work, I just have a few client relationships either because I'm on the board or I have retained relationships. So I'm actually not looking for new clients so much. But, you know, a lot of the change I'm trying to put out in the world, and this might just be by virtue of my age, is, you know, I'm hopefully sharing inspiration and wisdom through the books I've written, through podcasts, through some of...
Meghan Houle (41:08.24)
Mm-hmm.
Meghan Houle (41:12.321)
Okay, alright.
Meghan Houle (41:17.228)
Yeah.
Steve (41:27.818)
my writing, I mean, probably half of my time now is spent more on putting that, that content out or speaking engagements and things like that. I've, it's a way to reach, I mean, it's less in depth, but it's a way, you know, to reach thousands and thousands of people as opposed to, you know, five or six. So for me, it's a pretty good balance. I like the direct working with, with senior management teams. You know, a few of them in a deeper way. And then, you know, I've got sort of the
Meghan Houle (41:34.393)
Yeah.
Meghan Houle (41:38.074)
Yeah.
Meghan Houle (41:41.7)
Bigger visibility, yeah.
Steve (41:56.27)
It's not really mass market, but, but you know, broader reach strategy through, through books, podcasts and writing.
Meghan Houle (42:03.436)
Yeah. And where, because I love to write. I feel like it's not something I hone in on as much as I wish I did. But yeah, these two amazing books, I know Remarkable Retail is where you started, like, was that always something in your soul where you just like loved writing and then I know you were talking about, you know, writing your blog in pieces and working for Forbes and now you have the two books. Like, where did you get started on that journey? Yeah. What has that been like for you as an author now? Yeah.
Steve (42:21.215)
Yeah.
Steve (42:29.51)
Well, I appreciate the question. I did like writing much, much earlier in my life. I loved creative writing when I was in school, actually taught creative writing for a brief period of time, wrote for the school newspaper when I was in college. And so I really liked writing. And then I basically got away from it for like 30 years, I think, or probably even more, because I was just so focused on my career and raising kids.
Meghan Houle (42:52.724)
Oh, wow. Yeah.
Steve (42:57.674)
and things like that. So I didn't really scratch that creative itch. And then I started writing these smaller pieces, I don't know, 10, 12 years ago, I guess. And I really loved being able to hopefully inspire people, educate people. But I did, yeah, I just did like to write. And then I got asked actually about seven or eight years ago, I don't know if I should say this, and nobody's listening to this, hopefully. So nobody will know this little secret, but I got...
Meghan Houle (43:07.1)
Mm-hmm.
Steve (43:27.626)
I got called up by a very senior person at Nike who had been reading my blog and she said, Hey, we're having this management meeting and we'd love to have you come speak to us. Do you, that's something you do, right? And I said, Oh yeah, sure. Having actually not done it. And I like you, you bet. Sure. And like, you're going to pay me for this or how does this work? I didn't even know. And so fortunately I have a very good friend who's been
Meghan Houle (43:30.989)
Oh wow.
Meghan Houle (43:42.076)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Steve (43:52.414)
speaking and writing for a long period of time. So I called them up and said, I just said yes to this speech, but I don't know what I really just said yes to. Well, anyway, I had to figure that all out. And that sort of started on this journey of trying to take some of my individual ideas which were expressed in social media or blog posts and turning into kind of a longer form narrative. And then at a certain point I said, oh, maybe I've got something here to put into a book. So that led to Remarkable Retail almost exactly four years ago that came out.
Meghan Houle (43:59.993)
Yeah.
Meghan Houle (44:08.314)
Yeah.
Steve (44:22.03)
And then, you know, this last couple years, I've really been exploring more broadly the issue of why is it that so many transformations fail? You know, what is it that keeps leaders from making the changes that they must? And I keep kind of coming back to this quote of, you know, if the world has changed so much, why have you changed so little? And so that's kind of my newer focus. I'm not letting go of Retail, but Leaders Sleep is a book that's...
Meghan Houle (44:22.46)
Mm-hmm.
Meghan Houle (44:42.072)
Right.
Meghan Houle (44:49.089)
Right.
Steve (44:50.762)
You know, includes a bunch of retail stuff, but includes things for people outside of retail as well.
Meghan Houle (44:55.432)
Yeah. And then I'm sure you're looking to kind of take that journey. Maybe there's bigger talks or events and panels to get involved there because that's so, that information is so cross-functional no matter what industry you're in, like to be a good leader and to listen. And I mean, think about all of the individuals over the years that have invested in that personal development or executive development and that ebbs and flows. I think personal development investments sometimes is the hardest money.
Steve (45:02.784)
Hmm?
Steve (45:19.502)
Sure.
Meghan Houle (45:24.408)
giveaway Steve I'm not sure why I'm like we can go and spend and no disrespect to any coffee because of it you know you go to spend like what seven eight twelve dollars on a coffee I get yelled at quite often for my you know extensive coffee hours but like oat milk's expensive I don't
Steve (45:25.867)
Hehehe
Meghan Houle (45:39.084)
why? It's just like, yeah, this one up being seven bucks. But like, we can spend money on our future personal development, you know, getting better, like leadership training, coaching, whatever it is. So I mean, I think it's amazing when you have valuable books and resources. And I also love to like read and write and all of it that, you know, really with this new book, I'm super excited to see, you know, how companies brands and, you know, sure, of course, wherever you want to kind of leverage that to go out and maybe train people how to transform and be better leaders, we need it. I mean, for
To keep anyone in a business and organization, people work for people. I mean, we were talking about it before. Some of the highest paid people that I know at times are the most unhappiest because they're just in these brands that they don't feel supported or they don't feel the growth or feeling stagnant or just toxic. So I think a lot of people are willing to take a step back to get into something more meaningful for themselves or work around better people. So I love that. Yeah.
Steve (46:11.202)
Mm-hmm.
Steve (46:30.894)
Well, hopefully. Yeah. I think it's, I mean, to me, leadership, uh, you know, getting back to just quickly, something I said earlier, when I got that first job running a division, I, aside from being scared out of my mind, I also felt like this crush of great responsibility because people, I mean, not just, just me, but you know, people are counting on the leader to, to make the decisions and it just, you know, it's an overwhelming responsibility. So I think if people aren't doing, um, like, you know, when you see companies struggle and have to.
Meghan Houle (46:36.857)
Yeah.
Steve (46:59.478)
file for bankruptcy or do massive layoffs or close a bunch of stores, whatever it might be. I think that's just, I mean, sometimes it's inevitable or unavoidable, but a lot of times it's just people have not done the work that they needed to do and made the leaps that they need to stay in business, but also hopefully grow and provide new opportunities for everybody who works for them and with them.
Meghan Houle (47:24.54)
Right. Well, and then for Remarkable Retail, I mean, I know between the book you have the podcast, so maybe going between now your two books. So who is Remarkable Retail for? What do you talk about in your podcast? Someone landing on all that wonderful content, what can they learn from? What are some of your key messages, takeaways? Who is that for?
Steve (47:44.75)
Sure, well, the concept of remarkable retail, the book and my speeches and things is this idea that in a world where customers have so many choices and it's hard to kind of be that compelling signal amid all the noise, it's not good enough anymore to just be very good, you have to be truly remarkable. And so I try in that book to not only present the situation we find ourselves in, in terms of how retail has evolved and is evolving.
Meghan Houle (48:03.525)
Uh huh.
Steve (48:12.834)
but I lay out a framework of eight essentials that I believe most retailers need to ascribe to, to continue to thrive. The podcast, which was a COVID product or project, we're about 190 episodes in now, I think, and we generally try to showcase brands that are doing something remarkable. So we have leaders on mostly C-suite.
Meghan Houle (48:23.034)
Yeah.
Meghan Houle (48:26.701)
Yeah, yeah.
Steve (48:40.362)
leaders, we've had the CEO of Ulta, Walmart International, Canada Goose, bunch of other brands talk about their strategy, what they're doing to, or what they've done to be highly differentiated and successful, what they're doing to continue to grow. And lately we've been really, because of, I guess, my focus with Leaders Leap has been a little bit more like, what's the leadership story in there as well? How are they leading? How are they responding to change? What do they do to engage their associates to?
Meghan Houle (48:46.833)
Hmm.
Meghan Houle (49:03.457)
Uh huh.
Steve (49:09.346)
to keep the growth engine going or if it needs to shift to make those shifts.
Meghan Houle (49:14.668)
Yeah. Well, and so curious from one podcaster to another. I know you just mentioned some, but what are some of your favorite questions to ask? What do you love hearing more about or digging into the nitty gritty for some of these CEOs? Yeah. So curious.
Steve (49:27.296)
Yeah.
Steve (49:30.626)
I love to hear about glorious failures, basically. Like what is a failure that you're proud of almost, right? Not because you took that chance and you learned something. Because you know, a lot of times, particularly when you get, nothing against some of our guests, but you get publicly traded companies, CEOs on, it's kind of like the investor presentation. Like we're so great, we're opening all these stores, yada yada, but like, okay, let's talk about you and let's talk about something that.
Meghan Houle (49:36.508)
Totally, yes.
Yeah.
Meghan Houle (49:53.348)
They can't talk about it, right? Yeah, yeah.
Steve (49:58.538)
that was an edge for you or something maybe at one point you were a little bit embarrassed by not to shame them or, you know, get into any gossip. But and you know, and you can, you know, it's funny, you can see, well, you're probably not surprised by this, that, you know, there's some leaders that are just confident enough and introspective enough and willing to be vulnerable that they'll go there quite easily. And others are kind of like looking at their IR person or their PR person, they're like, oh, I didn't know I was going to get asked this question.
Meghan Houle (50:04.953)
Right.
Meghan Houle (50:08.644)
Yeah.
Meghan Houle (50:22.19)
Uh-huh.
Meghan Houle (50:27.352)
Right, right, you're like, where's my list of questions? Yeah, yeah.
Steve (50:28.086)
But yeah, and, and you know, and it's always interesting where people will go because, you know, typically we don't, I mean, I've had some, some people I've worked with on the podcast, so I kind of have a sense of what they're gonna say, but in other cases, you know, we're meeting the person for the first time, typically meeting them over, you know, technology, not in person, and you don't quite know, you know, you can't tell the body language or you don't quite know where this is, this is gonna go, and you can always feel people tense up a little bit at the.
Meghan Houle (50:45.625)
Right.
Meghan Houle (50:49.625)
Yeah, yeah.
Steve (50:58.018)
expected question or the vulnerable question, but I'll just love it when people are able to just be real.
Meghan Houle (51:01.148)
Totally.
Yeah. Amen to that. Well, in putting you in the juicy hot seat before we like wrap up with some fun things, I don't know, I'm also like a big woo-woo person. I know. I love manifesting or saying things out loud and just like making it happen. If you could pick or maybe it's like a stage you would love to speak on or like somebody you would love to interview, like what's like a big juicy goal of like either a conversation or like a group or a stage you want to be a part of, like tell us about your goals, Steve.
Steve (51:16.779)
Hehehehe
Steve (51:32.714)
Well, one that's... Well, I think one thing is, particularly since I'm taking a bit of a leap with this new book moving into more of the kind of inspirational leadership space, I would just love to have a bunch of CEOs call me in and say, I want you to come and kind of mix it up with our leadership team, like really push us, be provocative.
Meghan Houle (51:33.734)
Or like, who's your idea?
Meghan Houle (51:38.653)
Mm-hmm.
Meghan Houle (51:44.123)
Yeah.
Meghan Houle (51:50.213)
Yeah.
Meghan Houle (51:56.309)
Yeah. Hmm.
Steve (51:58.114)
And, and, you know, hopefully I would have the confidence to not, not be in their face just for the sake of doing it. But I think there's quite a lot of provocative, uncomfortable stuff in this book and being able to really, and I've got a couple of clients that I've already done this with a little bit, but you know, I've known them, but for me to kind of walk into the, the lion's den or whatever the right analogy is, and, you know, with a team, I don't really know and put these ideas out there and just mix it up with them and, and hope that would really lead to some serious introspection and a willingness to.
Meghan Houle (52:07.95)
Yeah.
Meghan Houle (52:13.712)
Mm-hmm.
Meghan Houle (52:19.118)
Yeah.
Steve (52:27.586)
to see things differently like that. It just, it dry, I mean, I'm on the one hand, I'm really trying to bring a very hopeful message that with all this change, there's great opportunity, but at the same time, there's a bunch of companies where I'm like, you guys gotta wake up. Like, you don't, you know, don't be the next Sears, don't be the next Bed Bath and Beyond, or companies that had it all and squandered it. Like, you know, get ready.
Meghan Houle (52:30.118)
Yeah.
Meghan Houle (52:45.037)
Yes.
Steve (52:55.178)
to lead, get ready to take some bold moves, aim higher, move faster, do the things that you know you must rather than study it and defend the status quo basically. So those kinds of things are interesting. I wouldn't mind doing it like a real Ted talk or whatever. Those seemed fun, but.
Meghan Houle (53:06.425)
Yeah.
Meghan Houle (53:12.596)
No, that'd be awesome. I mean, sign me up. And also, I feel like I have some people I'm going to refer to here. So more to come on that. I'm like, Steve, like, you need to reach out to these CEOs. I mean, as you, you know, kind of getting to know me and all the things that I mean, doing this for so long and working with individuals to help hire and build teams. And also, you know, with some of the coaching I do, I mean, I work with a lot of people that I feel like our building brands are struggling. So.
Steve (53:19.886)
Okay.
Meghan Houle (53:37.808)
good crossover. I'm always up for a good crossover partnership, Steve. That's sort of as a master networker over here. But before I let you go, for someone listening in and you've had some purposeful pivots and some not purposeful pivots, a big non-purposeful pivot that have led you to this awesome purpose that you're in now, but what would you say for someone really looking to make a meaningful change in their career?
Steve (53:41.262)
I love that.
Meghan Houle (54:00.88)
career, like the big loaded question, like, what advice would you give to somebody and maybe sitting in retail right now feeling stuck or feeling underappreciated or undervalued, like what advice would you give to somebody listening in that's really wanting to change?
Steve (54:14.602)
Well, I do think it's a little bit of turning inward and trying to understand what is the, what is the essence of that frustration? You know, is it, is it an unhappiness with yourself or some decisions you made in the past or whatever, or is it really the, the environment you're in? Um, I, I generally, I mean, you know, not trying to like Marie Kondo this, but say, you know, figure out what gives you joy, but I think, you know, sometimes, sometimes like I know I have talked myself into, into a few situations where.
Meghan Houle (54:35.352)
No, totally. Yeah.
Steve (54:42.682)
You know, this is the thing I'm supposed to do. But, you know, deep down I felt resistance to it, you know, more than just it's new and I'm going to have to learn it and that's uncomfortable. But, you know, don't let the external factors drive you too much. Try to really understand if your frustration is more inward or find those things that really, for whatever reason, you find yourself drawn to, you know, as you need. Like for me.
Meghan Houle (54:46.158)
Yep.
Steve (55:10.166)
When I went out on my own, I mean, I knew that I had this kind of creative itch that I needed to scratch and I wasn't able to do that in a corporate world. Um, and so fortunately I listened to that, to that voice, not completely, but, but at least I got myself pointed in the right direction. I think the other thing is just use the opportunity to, you know, if there's something that sounds good to you as a, as a possible move, you know, do you do what you can to explore that a little bit? Meet people, go talk, you know, a lot of people love talking about their jobs and
Meghan Houle (55:26.703)
Hmm.
Meghan Houle (55:36.581)
Yes.
Steve (55:38.918)
And you know, not everybody's going to say yes to having coffee with you or a zoom call or whatever, but you can just learn a lot by through networking and some exploratory stuff to kind of test drive things before, you know, you make that, that big move that might be a little bit harder to, uh, you know, reverse course.
Meghan Houle (55:42.843)
Right.
Meghan Houle (55:56.568)
Yeah, find a community, find a mentor. I mean, again, you're right, not everyone in this day and age, I know we're all so inundated with requests and everything, and not everyone's always going to have time. But I feel like when you're specific and your approach is coming from a genuine, specific, authentic place, sometimes there are people that are very generous and willing to be like, sure, let's chat. Like, what can I do for you? How can I say your name in a room of opportunity? But I agree with you, and I think that's so beautifully said, like going inward and what is...
Steve (56:16.846)
Sure.
Meghan Houle (56:24.792)
at the core of that frustration? What is your gut telling you? And do you really need to like burn it all down and start over or are there opportunities to make maybe even small changes? Like maybe you're dealing with something and you can show up a little bit differently in your day to day and flip the script on how you're showcasing yourself in value and are you creating a bad environment for yourself with your energy? So there's all those different things, yeah.
Steve (56:49.994)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, sometimes.
Meghan Houle (56:54.208)
Well, before I let you go, so what are you most excited for looking into the rest of this year? What are you up to? Like, where can we come hang out with you beyond your books and your podcast, which will link everything, but what else is on deck that maybe you're looking forward to? Yeah.
Steve (57:06.2)
Thank you.
Well, I'm really looking forward, even though it scares me of getting out and talking to people about the material in Leader's Leap, because it's not one of the things just quickly that one of the things that's really different about this book compared to Remarkable Retail is Remarkable Retail is it was in a lot of ways a synthesis of many things that I had been writing in smaller pieces and had been delivering keynote talks for several years. So by the time I sat down to
really work on remarkable retail. I had worked out a lot of the storytelling and a lot of the examples. I mean, it's still a lot of work to put a book together, but I had kind of trial run a lot of material. This book, it's not completely divorced from that, but I haven't spoken about it in front of an audience really. And so a lot of things, it's kind of like, ta-da, here it is. And I just actually got an email from somebody who read the book, apparently like overnight. And...
Meghan Houle (58:03.552)
Oh wow, that's awesome!
Steve (58:05.362)
And said he was very generous in some of the nice things he said, but he also said it was very surprising for him because he didn't think it was going to be like, he sort of thought of it as going to be like a little bit of a sequel to remarkable retail. And he's like, it's not at all. And I really appreciated some of the, the vulnerability and some of the different perspectives on it. So, you know, that's a little bit nerve wracking for me to see what's going to happen when you put stuff out in the world. But at the same time,
Meghan Houle (58:18.033)
Mm-hmm.
Meghan Houle (58:28.528)
Mm.
Meghan Houle (58:31.733)
Aww, yeah!
Steve (58:34.278)
I learn a lot from these conversations and that just makes me hopefully a more educated person and then I can bring whatever I learn from the folks I talk about it to whatever new situations I find myself in.
Meghan Houle (58:48.124)
Definitely. And I think there's so much value and so much good synergy with the crossover of your industry that you've known and loved, but getting to work with a lot of different companies at all levels. So I have no doubt. And I can't wait to see you on stages and for your TED Talk. Like let's do it. Let's do it, Steve.
Steve (59:05.564)
Alright.
Meghan Houle (59:06.828)
You got this. I'm just kidding. I feel like yes, I do Megan But tell us you know just quickly and again like I said, we'll link, you know Where are the best places to find you engage with you? Like what's your favorite platform? Yeah
Steve (59:17.678)
Sure.
Well, I'm most active on LinkedIn on social media, um, uh, like accent so forth. I still call it Twitter. I'm at Steven P Dennis, Steven with a V the proper way to spell it by the way, P as in Peter Dennis. Um, that's also my, uh, my website is Steven P Dennis.com and then it's the remarkable retail podcast. So a lot of, lots of stuff out on social media podcast is, is weekly. And, uh, and then, you know, if you follow me on there,
Meghan Houle (59:33.212)
Mm-hmm.
Steve (59:50.89)
You can see which cities I'm going to be in and maybe come say hi.
Meghan Houle (59:54.44)
and hang out. No, it's amazing. And I can't wait to bring you to Boston and like we were saying earlier, like meet in real life. And, you know, I know we've been in each other's spaces for a bit now, but I'm so glad that we're brought together. And thank you for coming on this podcast, which also was sort of this passion pivot for me in COVID of bringing voices together and inspirations that have just evolved into like stories and
You know, all these different synergies and conversations that we have, building businesses, quitting jobs, building your leadership, personal development, whatever you need. So I'm so honored and appreciative of your time for the podcast. And I'm sure this will be a great lesson for all of our community.
Steve (01:00:31.566)
Thank you.
Meghan Houle (01:00:36.656)
Not that you need them, but I'm sure more LinkedIn followers. At some point you're going to be in LinkedIn jail. I feel like there is a point where they're like, oh, you can't have any more followers. I'm like, how is that true? I know a couple of my friends who I'm like, that's what it's like to be popular on LinkedIn, okay? Because you have a voice and something to say, so you're amazing. But thank you so much.
Steve (01:00:53.294)
Hopefully. That's the goal anyway.
Meghan Houle (01:00:55.636)
I know, but then we'll just come to your TED Talk. But no, thank you so, so much, Steve. You are amazing. And I'm excited for all that is to come. And best of luck to all that you're doing, absolutely.
Steve (01:01:00.918)
Thank you. You're very kind.
Steve (01:01:07.554)
Thank you, I appreciate it. It's been great talking with you.
Meghan Houle (01:01:09.296)
Thank you. Yes.